Shotacon and Lolicon in the Red Curtain

For the longest time the site rules at PaperDemon.com have stated that Shota artwork was not allowed. Defining what Shota and Lolicon are is a very difficult task. I've mostly heard Shota described as underage boys in sexual situations with Lolicon being the female equivalent. But what defines under age? I suppose it would mean whether the person is an adult or a minor.

But how do you determine visually what the age of the character is? It's quite subjective trying to determine if a boy depicted in a sexual scene is 17 (a minor) or 18 (an adult). If he's 17 its shota, if he's 18 its not shota.

Up until recently I never really had to think about it and define this rule. I believe only once in our history have we ever deleted an artwork for being shota. But now we are having a lot of artists hop over from yGallery and suddenly we are faced with drawing the line in the sand.

DeviantArt's solution to this was to go by whatever age the character is in the series (if its fanart) and that you cannot age the character. This seems ridiculous to me because I believe the artist should be able to age the character and it would also be a pain for our moderators if we had to go look up on wikipedia the age of every darn character depicted in a sexual scene in the Red Curtain. Plus we'd still be confused about what to do for original artwork.

I've given it a lot of thought and have decided that we will continue to disallow depictions of pre-pubescent and pubescent minors in sexual situations. However, artwork that depicts post-pubescent minors in sexual situations will be allowed. Visual indications of breasts, hips, thighs, and pubes are signs that the body has reached physical adult hood. This is the best way that I could come up with to visually determine which artwork is and is not allowed in our gallery because these are all visual signs of adulthood that can be measured.

However, some people still do not feel comfortable seeing post-pubescent minors engaging in sexual acts. For these works, we have created a Shotacon and Lolicon galleries in the Red Curtain. All Shotacon and Lolicon works must be submitted to these galleries. If you do not wish to see these artworks, you can filter it by going to Members Area > Profile/Account Settings > Filters.

I hope most of you will agree with this redefined rule. If you have any questions or wish to voice your opinion about this, feel free to reply to this news post or send me a private message. Public discourse preferred

I think this is the most intelligent handling of this too-often delicate situation that I have seen on a website.  I had wondered how this site would handle such things, and I'm encouraged as well as relieved to find this post.

Comparing with other sites (some too-liberal in my mind bordering or crossing into MAJOR legal red-zones, or others incredibly strict ((no names mentioned but we can conjure them just fine))...), I really like this best. 

Great logical handling of visual aging, and thanks for not being a block head like those over at... well... that other place... and saying characters can't be "aged."  That's a really dumb standing in my opinion! (Thiers, not yours! ^^)

Well anyways, the whole point of this was just to say THANK YOU for being INTELLIGENT and making the rules this way.  As a new artist here and a logical person, I really appreciate this distinction!

I'm so glad you approve. I wasn't quite sure how this would be received. I have been hearing a lot of artists talking about how they feel opressed by other sites out there. I feel bad for the artists but I often sympathize with the site admins on other sites because I'm an admin too. These are really TOUGH decisions to make.

Sorry Draith, but I must disagree.

I think that if you can the gallery set up for it ,and the filters set up for it it's ok. As long as people are being...i'll say "forced" to look at it ,by just clumping it in with the other artworks.

I must abmit I have a few souta (can't even spell it ,y'all) characters myself, but I keep it light just in case I might be crossing any lines, but the people from y!g ,go full on froce. I think it's best for everyone it feel welcome if you allow ,but just put on filters ,and stuff like you would with adults in the art.

In post prub stage (usually around 12 or 13) when the body want it to be time for you be able to reproduce you leave "lil girl ,and "lil boy" behind ,and become "young lady" ,and "young man". How held you are to the titles depend on your own matureity ,and vary with where you leave.

I'm not impling the choose is "UNINTELLIGENT" (seeing as how the word was used), but if you don't like it ,then put on the filter, like you can the other stuff.(And while I'm talkin' about that. Alil off subject an Anthro filter might be nice ,too.) Most legal probelms come in when you don't have a filter or at least some sort of warning. If you do the most people can do to you is whine about it, and that does nothing.

Oh the subject of y!g, they have auto-filters for guests ,and sites like FAP they have an auto filter that isn't remove ,even when you sing up ,until you remove it.

Honestly ,i don't like seeing per-pubs (somewhere around 10) in sexually acts ,but if that's what they wanna draw and I don't like it ,i'll just filter it if there's alot. To me there's never alot of that going around anyway, tho.

About the anthros. That's another line that we have not yet drawn. There is no rule against mature anthro entries yet. We haven't had any mature anhros submitted to the site yet. I will discuss it with the moderators. I will also add Shotacon and Lolicon to the Guest filters. Currently the only Guest filter inplace is 'Sexually Explicit Content'.

EDIT: Ok looks like we do have mature anthros in the red curtain. ive created a yiffy gallery and filter.

This all sounds very good and intellegent to me.  A fine handling of a tricksy subject.

I must say this and, please, no one think more ill of me for doing such; But I actually hate the topic in question However I’m not about to tell the artist that they can't draw it!

I think its a great thing that a sight is holding the creativity portion of art above the viscosity of it, so many people forget that some people are not professionals but in order for them to aspire to be such breaking them is not how to do it. Pointing out someone’s flaws can ruin the whole reason someone would turn to drawing, and to say they can't "age" a fictional character falls under that category.

It can be defined as ridicule and I would prefer to stay away from such things, it’s not funny, it’s not right and I’m screwed in the head literally the only reason in not in an insane asylum is because I can actually function with the messed up twisted organ I call a brain. So I can’t fathom how someone would come to the conclusion that guys that look in their early 20’s are classified as minor.

The age olds

See, to me, I'm a little closed minded in the sence that you're legal to have sex in NZ if you're 16, so to me, mid to late teens is fine. Earlier is a little dodgy, so I agree with the boobs, bums and thighs rule. Besides- most of my art is based in a medieval fantasy world where the guardian family only have 30 years to live- most of them have kids at 15ish so they can see their child through to when they are at their full potential (magically) and can properly guard the world.

Besides- young is appealing ,but not TOO young. I don't like calling 16+ shota, but it is, cause its underage across the whole world, but it's fine. If it has old enough bits- it's fine to me

Furrys- where is the limit? I have Arkillian Dragon forms that are scales. Do I have  to filter them as furry? Where does it stop being Kemonomimi?

On Aug 2, 2007 2:48 pm, arkillian said:

Besides- young is appealing ,but not TOO young. I don't like calling 16+ shota, but it is, cause its underage across the whole world, but it's fine. If it has old enough bits- it's fine to me

Yeah I know what you mean about naming it Shota because its not generally what you think of when you think of Shota. To me, when someone says shota, prepubescent is what comes to mind. So PD is really only allowing a very limited scope of Shota. To make things clear, the galleries literally are named "Shotacon (post-pubescent)"

We're still working out the details for Furry art. I'll let you all know the details when its decided.

On Aug 2, 2007 2:48 pm, arkillian said:

I can help with that.

Anthro is half human ,half animal IN MOST CASES. Nagas like the way I do them are considered kemonomimi. I make my Ishtara more human.

Nagas that are more reptail-like are anthro.

3 fingers instead of 5 (or 4 and 1 thumb) = anthro

green or whatever other color instead of human color skin = anthro

Horns and scales are optional ON BOTH!

All in short if it looks more ANIMAL then human it's anthro. If it's more animal then human it's kemo.

It it's a dog standing up whetier it's hin-leg style or 2 leg style (like us) it's still ahtro due to being covered in furry, having a mussle(?) instead of a human face. Paws for feet or not, it's still anthro.

A people with scales, a tail ,or ears is kemo.

~

Now ,for sake of getting BACK ON SUBJECT!

I perfer we don't use "intellegent" about this. Being intellegent doesn't have anything to do with personal opioins on issues like this. Then if some ,like myself ,disagree it makes look like it's said to be unintellegent ,and i ,nor no other disagreeer, have no  intent on offending someone in such a way ,just because they see differently.

Nekoyoujo, I'm really not sure what you disagree with, because I couldn't really tell what you meant in my particular post that was a difference from your opinion (in your first post)?  If you could clarify that, that'd be great...

Also, I apologize on the inferrence on "intelligent."  What I truly meant by using that word was that this seems to be the most thought-out stance on this subject, and it is actually being discussed rather than slapped up in the rules with no ifs, ands, or buts.  I realize everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I believe some opinions are ill-based.  Again, that's my opinion I suppose, but looking at a comment on this thread regarding the legal age of consent and older times when people had babies younger... it just makes sense.  In my state, 16years old is the age of consent.  I believe at least one or two states in the USA have the legal age of 15.  (I could be wrong about that, let me say that now...)  In light of that, I find removing sexually-situated art featuring a 17year old to be slightly odd, since people of that age are quite widely acceptable as consenting to sexual conduct.

My general views on sexual activity are more liberal than most, and I acknowledge that, and I realize that many would readily disagree with me.  I don't believe in what I'd call true "shota" (pre-pubescent) sexual representations, because that age of a person isn't in its full sexual form yet, and so those acts aren't biologically meant for that person then, even disregarding views on legality or morality.  Post-pubescent is still a fine line until so-named "age of consent," which are different for different areas.  Anyway... I think I deviated a bit and started a new vein here, but I wasn't meaning that the choices were unintelligent, or that the people holding those views were unintelligent (or that anyone disagreeing with me is unintelligent), I simply think that the way this is being handled is in an intelligent manner, and a more open-minded process to begin with, which I believe will lead to a better conclusion.

I hope that cleared a few things up... please let me know if it didn't.  
-Draith

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me, thanks for defining it and making clear what is ok and not.

DA has really gone overboard with this issue and in my opinion, a little insane. I think this is a level headed and fair policy, so cookies for you

Tomoe, lost I check dA is having ALOT of probelms. One I see is people talking photos of a female body part ,and calling it "Artistic nude". dA is a big site so you can do pretty much whatever and not get cought, unless they're singaling you one for one reason or another.

I like artistic nudes, don't get me wrong, but seriously...

But I've said it before ,and I'll say it as many times as it needs to be said : "What's dA without the drama lama?"

~

Draith, when I say "I disagree" I'm saying I think as long as they're are filters ,in my opinion that makes it seem ok (even though it's said it's not). I'm one of those "Do what you want as long as you're not hurting anyone or trying to froce it on others" types. That means (with this issue) I think shouta(?) and loli are ok ,as long as there's no proof of it being real (ex: photo, 3d, etc).

I accept your sorry on the "intelligent" part. I don't want anyone to feel insulted in anyway way about how I ,and others (agree or disagree) feel on this. Yes, it was discussed ,but I somehow feel that us members should've gotten some sort of say ,like at least poll or something like that. Yes, some opinions can be ill-based. If someone comes in here like "LOLI AND SHOTA SHOULD BE ACCEPTED BECUZ KIDDIES ARE YUMMY!!!!1!11one!!" I'll drop the whole subject with you.

As far as legal age of consent goes I do think there are some states were the consest is 15. In some conutries ,like Japan, a girl can get married at 13. That would mean all over the world the ages of consent vary between 13 and 18 ,as a starting point in a young adult life.

Biolofically a pre-pub boy or girl isn't able to do the thing a pub or post pub can. Simply because of the prefix "pre". With that being said I don't see how the artists that draw kids under that age pulls off the acts that only pub ,and post pub bodies are able to do. Then agian, we have m-perg running around everywhere so saying with logical ,and what's not is pretty unless ,because the artist's own choice.

MORALLY, I do think having sex with a child that doesn't know what sex is ,nor is biult or grown euong for it is wrong. That's CLEARLY froce to me, and as much of a sicko I am in my fastany world I will not allow such acts around me in the real world ,because that means someone is REALLY getting hurt ,and I don't like that. That's what I'm getting at ,though. In the art no one's getting hurt, therefore I don't see a probelm.

I now understand what you mean ,and even thought it may seem we're going alil back and forth, I have nothing agianst and I actuslly(?) respect you, because you have a very valid ,and explainable veiw on what's going on. I see lil of that on the internetz because of all the n00bs and drama-queens running around everywhere. (I'm not talking about anyone here.)

I'm not good at clearing myself ,sometimes, so if there's anything you or anyone esle doesn't understand feel free to ask.

On Aug 2, 2007 10:55 pm, Nekoyoujo said:

There are many things on PaperDemon that I will bring to an open discussion before final decisions are made. But there are other things that I don't leave up to the community because I already have a strong opinion on those issues. A poll doesn't work for me because I'd rather instead hear peoples best arguments and then make a decision based on the arguments made. A poll wouldn't work because the popular choice isn't always the right choice.

On Aug 2, 2007 11:43 pm, BogusRed said:

That's why i said "at least" You're right tho. A poll doesn't say much ,if someone can talk it out at the same time.

I still vote for if they have adult likeness then it's cool (even if the character is still under 18) I don't like pre 15 at all though. It's dirty. Specially cause they always hock below 15s up with adults. It's just wrong. If they were just naked, I wouldn't have an issue at all. Everyone to their own. In sexual act? NO WAY >.<

On Aug 2, 2007 10:55 pm, Nekoyoujo said:

I'm not talking about their photo section (which they mod with no where near the same way they do the art sections), I'm talking about their overall attutude and policies towards fanart and really, drawn art in general. They are targeting "popular series" for fanart and deleting things with the guise of "child porn" when in alot of cases it clearly is not. The main mod there made an extremely insulting journal entry about the issue and basically lumped all fanartists as untalented pedophiles with "driving needs to draw minors in sexual situations". 

But anyway....

Personally, I'm fine with lolicon. Fantasy=/=reality. The two do not intersect or have anything to do with one another. When I see these huge discussions and flame wars of minors,sex , pedophilia and the morality of fanart or art in general, it boggles me how the two seem to get blended into one. Molest fictional children all ya want, doesn't bother me any. *shrug* So far the US laws agree with that sentiment, so yay on that front. Although you wouldn't know that from DA or Live Journal these days and their sudden OMG CHILD PORN freak outs.

I'm starting to hear Reverend LoveJoy's wife from the Simpsons and her "Won't someone PLEASE think of the children!" everytime I see this drama blow up lately. XD It's too much!!!

I have to put in a word or two here - can't hold back any more.

This is a very controversial subject, and I must say I believe our little site is handling it admirably!  Susie already knows my problems on the subject, but not many others do..  So here they are.

I think a lot of people forget that this is an international website.  It's legal in most countries to make or draw art of people above the age of consent/post-pubescents in sexual situations.  However, in Canada, where I am, it is illegal to draw OR view art of pre-pubescent people in sexual situations, or being exploited in any way.  It doesn't matter if said art is based on a drawing or not - in my country it is viewed as 'wrong'.  Shotacan and lolicon, under BR's definitions of post-pubescents, are alright for me to view (and moderate for that matter) without getting into trouble.

While I have nothing against artists who draw these things (as long as no one is hurt in the process), Myself and my fellow Canadians are obliged to turn our backs to them.  Now, with all that in mind, I believe that the post-puberty rule is the most universally acceptable, with the least amount of hurt to anyone.

Tomoe

 dA is dA. It's their business to target the flame things they don't like. Lets keep them out of this.

(And surely the mod got fired for that, anyway. They drives people away from the site.)

~

Minimaid

Yes, in SOME countries it's wrong. In some it's not. USA is a VERY odd place because some states (and even cities) have different laws then others.

~

That's what I'm saying the filters should be for. If we're gonna throw y!g into this (with all the poeple from there being here yet suprisingly not posting about this), and different laws in different place ,and all that this I think considering all is the right thing to do.

Like I and Tomoe said in basices. fanasty =/= relatity. If there's no dipiction(?) of real attacks (photo ,3d) then I think it's ok. Really , i have nothing agiasnt 3d ,either ,but those can look to be some really close calls. Some really good with 3d.

Unfortunately, a lot of sites and groups that I've seen and been part of in the past have been lulled into a false sense of "openness" with the old saw about not being judgmental about subject matter.  Unfortunately, that's just blood in the water for real deviants, violators and predators and they come flooding in to wreck what was otherwise a genial and well-grounded community. 

There's a tendency in the art world to look at something you know is wrong and think, "well, if I take it this way, then it won't really be what I'm seeing."  You learn to trust your eyes and your instincts and not be lulled into a feeling of intimidation by those who want to use this forum as a seeding ground for their agendas.

Yes, continue the bans on underage sexuality, with the usual caveats about a bare-bottomed toddler in its mothers arms.  I say go one step further and make it The Big Five:  pedophilia, necrophilia, incest, bestiality and scat.