Shotacon and Lolicon in the Red Curtain

On Aug 5, 2007 7:40 pm, arkillian said:

You completely misunderstood me.  If you look back to the previous posts on this thread, you will notice that the very real subject of pedophilia was discussed.  I am NOT saying that anyone who looks at shota art is a pedophile.  I was simply saying that SOME pedophiles will merely get off on shota art or kiddy porn.  Trust me, I in no way want to come across as saying that anyone who draws/views/even doesn't mind/likes this vein of art is a pedophile.  I think you just misread what I was saying... Take my last post that dealt with this, for example... part said:

On Aug 4, 2007 10:08 am, Draith said:

As for myself, I'm bisexual, so I am far too familiar with labels and mis-labels.  I apologize that something I said apparently made you think I was labeling people as pedophiles.  I was not in the slightest.  However, when you call people that you don't know "hon," it can sound condescending, just to let you know.  I have done it, as well, and know that you likely don't mean it that way, but it can come across that way to strangers.

I call all my friends hon. If you wish me to not call you that then I wont. :shrug: (It's my generic "I don't know if you're male or female" title I give cause it sounds nice)

Labels aside, I think BR has made a desission anyways. It's all ok to me, as long as I have the choice to not look at shota if I want to

On Aug 5, 2007 7:40 pm, arkillian said:

I have a feeling that Draith may be referring to real pedophiles. As in those that have some sort of mental disfunction that drives them to be sexually attracted to children more so than adults.

But I have seen a couple people on this site and others referring to themselves as pedophiles. Nekoyoujo has just posted a thread linking to her DA journal and she states shes a pedo and proud of it. But I think labeling yourself in that way is a really dangerous thing to do, especially on a public website. I mean its one thing to get turned on by shota drawings, but its a completely different thing if you are a real pedophile as in one that rapes children and is socially disfunctional and attracted to children and only children. Anything you say on the internet can be used against you someday.

EDIT: sorry i didn't see there was a third page to this thread haha.

I think the hot button issues about erotic art have been handled well in RC.  While not all the art is my thing - I'm not offended or disturbed by anything I've seen...the images are not over the top in my opinion.  (I've seen some pretty raunchy stuff  over the years).  I'm happy to know I have a place for my erotic art in the future...even if it's a raunchy yaoi sex scene or a tasteful nude. 

Adding my two cents to this...

So, after reading the first post, and everything after it...I just want to say that the original idea of how to differentiate between 'allowed' and 'not allowed' was a good one. By this I mean the whole physical features in the hips, breasts, and bums for girls at least, and a less 'little boy' physique in males...though for me, and my own art, pubic hair rairly happens as I personally don't like it. Bot those clues to someone being pubesent, old enough for the hormones that make the sexual being what it really is, is a great idea. It gives those of us who DO draw characters who are normally underage as being older a guidline of what will make them 'acceptably' old enough. Example: I like ecchi to hentai art of the characters from Card Captor Sakura. In canon several of my favorites are far to young for sex. In what I would like to draw, and like to view, they are at least 16. Now...I will say that I draw the line at 16 because that is when I personally, had my first time, so it just seems...natural to me for that age. For many sites, however, I TRY and age character up to 18. For the cast of CCS, that's fairly easy as they ARE so young to begin with...but take a character like Kagome from Inuyasha or Makoto Kino from Sailor Moon...they already LOOK older in the way thier bodies are shaped/formed in the canon. That makes it FAR harder to age them up without making them rather old. So having a guidline of 'draw them this way and your pretty safe' so far as thier bodies go is a good thing. Now, I DO understand that some pieces may be removed anyway, because of other aspects to them, or becuase they are all abou the sex, and not the art, and I'm fine with that. But knowing that I can, say submit a picture here of Inuyasha and Kagome kissing, while nude, with NOTHING showing because of the pose, is a wonderful thing, when other sites would tell me that 'she's not old enough' and remove because she's canonically (is that even a word?) underage and they don't feel that either I've aged her up well enough, or don't allow you TO age them up to do such art.

And that was really long from someone who hasn't posted a THING artwise yet...ummm...well...there's my two cents and then some I guess...*runs to hide and decide what art to post first*

*sighs and walks back in* Ok, y'all I'm back, and I have a WHOLE story for you all to read.

I'm only gonna post PART of it here. To read all of it go here:

http://inuyoujo.deviantart.com/journal/14037517/

dA, is where I'm posting my rants ,and stuff. I figuer i'll can keep my drama where all the drama is. *shrug*.

However, that it's a rant. That's an explainess on ALL of how I feel about this ,and why I think souta and loli should be allowed on RC.

It toke a long time to write ,so if you're gonna start reading it go on and read the whole thing.

If you're just gonna pick sides ,because I called someone out, then don't bother reading it at all.

As for the part i am gonna post ,here is it:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The overall matter on CHARACTER age:

Does it really matter how old a cartoon character looks? There are alot of character s that don't look their age for one reason or another. Demonic powers, some sort of imprisonment, etc.
Example: Inuyasha. Pinned to a tree in his younger years ,but stuck there for 50 years.

Say the character is +40's ,but for some reason is still in the body of a 10 year old. Example: Sasami from Tenchi Muyo. She's in her 200's, but she looks no older then 11.
You can use Ayaka, Ryoko, and Washu for those examples, too. They're all over 500 ,but look 16, 20's , midget 30.

Also include Washu is a Goddess ,and has 2 forms...her Goddess form...isn't very...short... Same for Sasami's from.

That brings up the subject of transformation, shape shifters (Example: Envy - FullMetal Alchemist), and importantly ORIGINAL CHARACTERS.

With a popularly made character from a series you can tell what's what most of the thing in terms or age ,gender ,and personality. What about people's original characters? You can say "That's under 16" just by looking at it ,but the person can easily say "It looks that way but she's a demon that can change form." If it's truth or a lie is up to the artist, and no one else.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Agian, the whole thing is here: http://inuyoujo.deviantart.com/journal/14037517/

Hi Nekoyoujo. I read your DA journal entry and you are right that some of hotspur's comments were a little condescending. He was making a personal attack on you and the situation has been dealt with. I do not agree with all of his arguments but a couple do stick out to me:

Then you stated that this is what you interpreted his meaning as:

Bestiality, necrophilia, and scat will most likely be added to the site rules as content that will not be allowed. This is because I can't imagine artwork with these subjects being done in a tasteful manner and as art.

Yiffy (anthro sex) is currently allowed but I'm not 100% sure it will stay this way. We're gonna feel it out a little.



Nekoyoujo, I agree with many of your points. I do not believe that if someone draws shota/loli art they are a pedophile or that if someone sees this artwork they become a pedophile. However, I have not seen any compelling reasons to add pre-pubescent shota to our gallery.

Because this issue is so controversial is part of the reason why I must use caution when making these decisions. I know this sounds completely selfish but choosing to add pre-pubescent shota/loli to our gallery could have a negative impact on my career. I'm already running a risk with owning the Red Curtain but its something I strongly believe in and if I were to ever be confronted with questions asking why I have this website I believe I could compitently defend myself and my choices. If PaperDemon was a source of income for me through which it could be my fulltime job, my decision might be different.

Also, as you stated earlier, you seem to be the only one voicing your opinion FOR shota/loli. If there were more people voicing their opinions on your side, that would make a difference as well.

Thank you BR- Your desicion makes alot of sence, and I sort of understand beter where the confusion came up. I thought I understood- I saw Hotspur's responce as you did too.

In the end, I sort of agree with Hotspur's comment in the sence that if a pedophile found this site and used it as their sorce of stalking / inspiration that it's a big negative, but I think it'd be obvious when it pops up, and as long as we tread carefully with who we meet with- you never know who your talking to- as Nekoyoujo found out with our professional fake- that trustworthy person could be a total have- or worse... a pervert (not in this case though).

PD will never stop people like that, and frankly, we have enough policys in place that if someone WAS going to do that kind of stuff, it couldn't have been stopped. I think we just need to make sure that our members are cautious that they are on the internet and to trust their instincts when talking to a potential. To be honest though, I think Y!g has more of a danger of perverts than we'll ever have. Maybe even DA. We should be safe

On Aug 8, 2007 5:21 pm, arkillian said:

Yet again, y!g is broguht up.

Firstly, y!g is for no one under 18. If underage members are found are suspende until they are 18. All perverts are gonna find there are other +18 year olds.

dA...well, they do what they want. It's a big site ,so few get cought doing things they know they aren't suppose to be doing ,anyway. The people on dA are almost as brutial and harsh ,as the people on Gaia (i remeber when both those sites were good sites, too. *cries*) The kids on dA ARE WAY MORE HARDCORE then to fall for some stu-pedo, from alot of the one's i've ran into.

They might try to make the freaks come to them, meet 'em at the mall then hurt THEM instead. Thou, my dA account, Inuyoujo, is fairly new I'm no stranger to what dA was ,and what it's turned into. They hardly have anything to worry about ,in that area.

Even tho I'm a bit my end with dA that's for other reasons. I do bileve if they felt the site was unsafe they'd do something about it. Something serious ,and derastic(?) that no would would be able to ignore.

And perverts are perverts. You're never safe from that.

~

Bogus Red

Well, I just told you how I feel about the whole thing, but I can't ignore the points you've made either. When I wrote the entry BEFORE that one (the rant) I was upset because I felt attacked, and dispite "encoragement" I shouldn't have made it made my anger public on the site. It won't happen agian.

I do have an idea ,however: Blocking underage accounts and guests from viewing the Red Curtain side.

Myspace, is just horror. One big horror story that Tom guy has to deal with. From all the jokes i here it never works anyway. I don't have a myspace,because I hate myspace.

As far as worrying about perverts ,we all know pedos aren't the only breed. You'd think an albut would know better then to try to meet someone on the internet ,too ,but there's  A WHOLE LOT of that going around.

As for  " It sounds like you think he meant that if you post shota that will encourage other people to become pedophiles." I can see how you took it that way. That's what I think he was saying ,but you might be right ,too.

"But I think he meant that if you post shota on the site, real pedophiles (as in the kind that actually rape children) will come to the site to see the artwork."

Any kind of prevert can come on a site and find something they like about it.

" Our site has two sides to it. One for general artwork that anyone age 13 and up can post to, and the other side for more mature entries that's strictly for adults. If shota acts as a becon for real pedophiles we can run into trouble where pedophiles are trying to meet up with minors on our site. "

That I have no argument agianst. You're right.

If it's for sake of kids, let's not take the blame off the parents for not watching what they're lil ones are doing , and teaching them does and don'ts of the interenet. If something happens to their child(ren) it's the parent's fault not the website.

" If shota [and loli] acts as a becon for real pedophiles we can run into trouble where pedophiles are trying to meet up with minors on our site. "

Most kids today are VERY internet savvy. With all these things on the news, schools now teaching kids about internet safety, and etc. It's the parents fault if they ignore it, and allow their children to ignore it.

Let them know if someone is trying to to mean with them on a harassing and/or uncomfy level that ,they can report then ,and the offenerd(?) will be banned-- I mean SLAIN! (That offically rocks too hard. )

As far as bestiality, necrophilia, and scat as much as I'm much of a fan ,myself, no harm can come to the site for having them. The foucs topic is age ,safety, and pedophlies. I don't think necro ,scat ,and besti will put anyone in harms way. Filters for images like that will keep that at bay for those with weak tummies. I look at it still kinda wanna throw up, but that's why I look at it. I like terrorizing(?) myself ,sometimes. I think stuff like that helps keep my reality in check.

No harm in yiff ,as far as I see ,either. I'm sort of a fan. Sonic/Tails!

" I know this sounds completely selfish but choosing to add pre-pubescent shota/loli to our gallery could have a negative impact on my career. "

I understand having to protect yourself ,but from what I don't understand. How can a website effect your career?

" Also, as you stated earlier, you seem to be the only one voicing your opinion FOR shota/loli. If there were more people voicing their opinions on your side, that would make a difference as well. "

This is what upset me a few days ago ,when they thread was first posted. Out of all the people we have here I still don't see way I'm the only one pro-shouta/loli in the thread , but I'm not giving up. In fact, that's something I'm gonna work on.

The only reason I have to allow shouta and loli is the to let all artists feel welcome ,because you already have an adult side for them to recide(?) in.

Just so we're clear:

None of this post is a rant. I've ranted before ,and that was only my anger talking. None of this post is out of any kind of anger ,or harsh feelings. If I had come in with this preset to the site I won't have anything about it, but it was here before I got here. I just feel if I have the chacne to fight for something, i have to do what I can.

On Aug 8, 2007 9:29 pm, Nekoyoujo said:

This is currently in effect. Members who are under age are not permitted in the Red Curtain. Guests viewing the Red Curtain automatically have shota and sexually explicit content filtered.

Its true that parents should be watching what their kids are doing. However, many parents may see PD and approve thier children to be on it, which is great! But then unbeknownst to them their kid starts talking to a pedophile. Parents can't be there every minute watching children. It's unrealistic. However, I do agree that parents and educators should do their best to inform kids about the real dangers on the internet. PaperDemon shouldn't be solely responsible if someone gets hurt from it. But we can't be completely blameless either. We should do what we can.

As far as bestiality, necrophilia, and scat as much as I'm much of a fan ,myself, no harm can come to the site for having them. The foucs topic is age ,safety, and pedophlies. I don't think necro ,scat ,and besti will put anyone in harms way. Filters for images like that will keep that at bay for those with weak tummies. I look at it still kinda wanna throw up, but that's why I look at it. I like terrorizing(?) myself ,sometimes. I think stuff like that helps keep my reality in check.

I disagree. I believe harm can come to the site if we allow these sorts of art. I think this type of work is tasteless and I don't want to see tasteless artwork in my gallery. And if I were to see the Red Curtain suddenly full of this type of artwork I would be severely depressed. I stand firm by my decision to not allow bestiality, necrophilia, and scat.

I don't think this last post sounded like a rant at all. I always welcome open discussion about PD.

On Aug 8, 2007 9:29 pm, Nekoyoujo said:

What I feel I must add here is the problem of children lying about their age.  No, you can't control that, but simply banning minors will get the result of some of those thousands of children who every day lie about their age to view adult content.  That's not PD's fault, of course, but I felt I needed to mention that this will NOT keep minors from viewing the Red Curtain, only the honest ones.

On Aug 9, 2007 5:19 am, Draith said:

You're right. I currently have no way of confirming that the birthdates members provide is accurate.

But I must mention that we do have another safe guard in place. If the computer has parental controls enabled on the computer, then access to the Red Curtain should be blocked regardless of whether they are logged in or not. We have something called ICRA tags that tells parental control software exactly what kind of content is in the Red Curtain so that the site can be blocked. So if parents do their part to install parental control software, we should be good.

On Aug 8, 2007 11:05 pm, BogusRed said:

Well, I can understand that much. You can depress over your own site.

For professional reasons, i won't understand how that works, because wed design is one of my down falls past simple HTML.

I may be a web design n00b, but I understand that not all sites allow everything, and that's not what I except from PD, either.

I fight because I don't have a place for my loli ,too, though. It's not just about the shota. Really, i draw more women ,then men.

I understand ,though. *sets in defeat* -_-

Perhaps you can make your own website and advertise it in your signature. Sounds like the less heart breaking option. Other option is if we have a 'Appoved' Section where a picture can be submitted to Bogusred for approval to post, and get stapped with a little sticker if she's happy with it. That way, if you have shota she DOES approve of, then you can post it here. Like- a non regulation section. The art stays hidden untill it's approved.

Is this an ok idea Susie? I do feel for Nekoyoujo's situation. I'm pretty sure people would be ok with the if you approved it

When I posted I had no idea the debate had heated up so much.

Goodness!  Our community is still small and the issue of 'taste' can be handled directly by Susie and her Mods.  It's a good idea to define the rules so deviants don't take things across the line. When I was in Japan I saw A LOT of things that were right at the line for pedofilia. (By western standards, mind you) The argument that it attracts those who will cross the line is valid, but it appears to be very possible to control things.  For instance there are a buntch magzines you can subsribe to in Japan that feature young boys from 13 - 15.  It's a catalogue of boys interacting in daily activities with a 'fashion shoot' type photo spreads.  They're cute, pretty and wearing the latest fashions, sometimes they're playing soccor or just walking in a group on the street. They're not child actors or anything - they're pin ups - if you want to get techincal I was kinda astounded that such a thing existed.  'Woa, a book of cute young boys frolicing about Japan'.

The incest issue...hmm, well like Susie said:  Many fanfics put family members in naughty situations.  And I agree that this is were a reasonable person has to seperate fantasy from reality.  I got a lot of  flames on other art web sites about my Matrix Twin art.  Yes, the actors are brothers...but the characters are computer programs!  Get a grip. 

Something to note is that these concepts we're discussing are mostly rooted in Japanese culture - the 'shota' 'shounen-ai', yuri, lolita complex and such. (Well, most of it is)  And many of these concepts are taboo in the west.  Exlporing these things is a interesting experience for the artist - myself included.  (I have no comment on necrophelia and scat....ewww)

This brings to mind a scene from Haunted Junction where a teenage girl rips the pants of a little boy and wildly snaps photos of him.  That show was crazy(and funny) - but it certainly shows how the Japanese have tolerated the lolita complex and make fun of it.

I know I'm kinda late in this conversation - just had to get in my 2 cents. 

So...as necrophilia was brought up as one of the topics in art you won't allow, I have to ask this...

What counts as necro? And what would count as being 'ok'? I ask because, well...there's a lot to cover there that should be considered. If you count 'necro' as being anything containing a 'dead' character, not just a corpse...well, Angels to some are dead. Vampires are dead, zombies are VERY dead. What about ghosts? If what is a no no is one having sex with a corpse, then zombies SHOULD count, as they ARE rotting corpses. However, some would argue that they are the 'living dead', right alongside vampires. So specifics here would be a good idea, as well. With a list of 'no nos' and 'allowables'.

Like, if I drew an image of one of my characters from WoW having sex with one of my husband's characters, would it count as unnaceptable here as they are both from the Undead race? Or the ever popular Zomby raping a random character from the Resident Evil games. Personally, though I will view both, I count the zombies as being drastically different from the Undead. And vampires and angels are a whole other area of the 'dead but not dead' to me, as are ghosts. *shrugs* Just pointing it out, not saying any of it should be here, just that more detailed thought should be put into that one, too.

On Aug 10, 2007 1:21 pm, ayas-shadow said:

My opinion on Necrophilia... Is that it would be defined as sexual interaction with a DEAD corpse... as in, the dead person cannot interact in the sexual actions because they are completely dead, unmoving, no life of any sort. 

That, to me, is the part that's wrong because basically, asside from really icky health reasons, that's rape of that person's body. Now, people can draw instances of rape, and honestly even then I've seen some that I'd call "art..." because the situation happens in reality, and that is that.  But Necro is something different, where even if given a "chance," the person is no longer capable of choosing an action. 

Vampires can move, interact, etc... even zombies which are technically walking, rotting corpses could then interact in the sexual situation.  That, to me, makes it not technically necrophilia.

I don't know what Bogus and her Mods think, but that's my thoughts on that.

lol And that, Draith is exactly why I brought it up! There are some of us that might have differing views from others. I know there are people that would say at the least Zombies count in Necro... So it definately needs to be thought out in detail with a lot of specifics give. ^-^ At least in relation to the 'living dead' or 'undead' factors. ^-^

On Aug 10, 2007 1:21 pm, ayas-shadow said:

Wow these are things I didn't even consider. Thank you for bringing this up. I think Draith's comments about an unmoving corpse are dead on (haha excuse the pun). However, I think sex with a Zombie is pretty darn icky too. Vampires, angels, and ghosts I think are alright. But inanimate corpse sex is not allowed for sure. I'm undecided about zombies. Right now I'm thinking Zombies shouldn't be allowed.

On Aug 9, 2007 4:28 pm, arkillian said:

How about my idea though? ^^; It'll solve alot of problems... :<