rant, please read, i do find it important

Well said, lost_kitsune! I completely agree with you! It ticks me off to no end when I see people preaching on how gay marriages are 'evil'. And do you know what thier 'logical explanation' is? My family are the kind of people like that, they're extremely against gay marriages and they say that "Satan corrupts them into being homosexual". Seriously, who really freaking cares? Even if you don't support homosexuality, leave them alone! It's not like they're bonding in marriage effects your life anyway!  It so dumb, how much time and money is wasted on outlawing gay marriages.

And the last time I checked, there is no verse in the Bible that is against gay marriage! If God created his people in his own image and loved them, why the hell would he create gay people anyway?

I'm not going to say any more on this...because you already summed it up. Don't worry, many years from now people will look back at this whole ruckus and laugh.

Good topic lost_kitsune! And I`m so with you! But you see it`s different in the USA,`cause there ARE lots of gay couples.Not many to no end,but still much more than in Europe and certainly more that in my region,the Baltic countries.I have seen a gay couple walking in public only once and that was about 2 years ago... See?In my country gay couples are a serious no-no... Actually,most of people think that gay couples are sick people,with no religion ad morality and most of them think that gay relationships are gross and a serious threat to community... Yes,I know,there`s no tollerance in my country..Though now,there are some organizations who are trying to protect homosexuals. But maybe I know the reason why people in my country hate homosexuals.My country is independant only for 16 years and we still are one of the developing countries in Europe.Even though we`ve joined EU(European Union) we still have much catching-up to do.I think lack of tolerance is normal in my counry for now.It`s just something new and people are to conservative to accept it. `Cause my country is very and I mean VERY religious...Maybe because there are so many old people,I don`t know,but still...So homosexuals are in a bad situation at the moment.I don`t even know if they are allowed to show their emotions in public.I think not.... There are a few homosexuals` clubs where they can do whatever they want,but I haven`t seen them in public...So ,I think as long as Gay marriages won`t be separated from reigion,there will be problems. I think there will be more tolerance towards homosexuals in my country as time passes.It just needs time.So it`s actually very strange to me that most of you guys are into yaoi,`cause if I say so in my country I think I`d be put on a fire or something... Well maybe not but still...WEll I really feel for homosexuals in my country and I hope they will have their tolerance soon. All in all,I`m with you Azzy and lost_kitsune. Government shouldn`t waste money on the things that are useless....Just separate the marriages from religion!Sheesh...Sometimes the government is getting on my nerves so much....

My love to you guys!

Moderator note.

Since this is a touchy subject, i'd like to tell everyone who will participate in this debate , that it's that; a debate. We all have our right to have put down our arguments, even those who oppose gay marriage and such. So please people, lets open our minds and really talk. If it does get out of hands, i will lock the subject. Lets act like humans shall we? Thank you.

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination."

Leviticus 19: 22-23

Ah, see there is a passage against it. Now we know! Thanks Karana

I always wondered what's Gods beef with homosexuality?  I read a book a long time ago that said 'Homosexuality wasn't a sin until the Christians said it was'.  It made me think a lot about the THOUSANDS of years of human existance before chrisianity.  Funny how an ideal can wash over peoples minds. 

Well, what do you know..there IS a verse. I guess I did miss something in that book..my bad xD

That is so true. It is probably because of the whole anti-gay rights thing going on right now. Some gay people think that they have to fight back by telling everyone they know about thier personal affairs. Just like the many explicit gay parades at San Francisco, it is totally uncalled for. However, little do some of them know, that by flaunting out your sexuality in public, it's only a step downward! It makes the anti-gay rights people even have more disgust for them! How do they expect the majority of the population to accept you afterwards? Thats the one problem with the gay community right now..

That being said, the right to Freedom of Religion only goes as far as granting citizens the right to worship as they please without persecution or interference by the State, ONLY so long as the rights of other citizens are not being infringed upon.  For example, you can not make up some crazy religion that involves taking away other people’s rights and claim that you must do X Y AND Z or your religious right will be infringed upon. You can not go around stealing people’s lawn gnomes and claim that the first commandment in your religion is “Thou shall steal all thy neighbor’s lawn gnomes” and claim religious freedom in doing so.  You are stealing other people’s property and interfering with their freedom. In the same regard, Christians, Jews, Muslims, or any other religion has no right to force other individuals to live in accordance to the laws of their respective religions because doing so interferes with the religion (way of life) of other citizens.  People have the right to condemn how other people choose to live their lives, but can not stop them as long as they are not infringing on the rights of other people.

While it is true that some of our most important laws come from the Bible (Thou shall not murder, commit adultery, steal, lie) these rules are necessary in a free society to prevent one individual from interfering with the rights of another.  Some people are worried that if gay people are granted the right to ‘marry’ it will be a slippery slope that would allow the things Qcvar mentioned, bestiality and incest.  However, these two items are already legal in a few of the states (depending on your definition of incest).  Oregon has no laws against bestiality except that the animal must not be harmed, and people are allowed to marry their 1^st cousins in 26 of the 50 states.  I do not believe that incest between siblings or parents will ever be legal because of the fact that these people coming together could create a baby with severe health defects, which is directly interfering with the rights of the baby.  Also, I believe that Oregon should get its act together and make bestiality illegal because there is no rational way to determine whether or not the animal is consenting and whether or not the animal has been harmed (I’ll say they’ve been harmed you sickos!).  The right for two consulting adults of legal age and of the same sex coming joining together in a union does not take away from the rights of any other individuals.  If they wish to live that way, it may or may not be against a particular religion, but it is THEIR life to live and it is between them and THEIR religions. People have no right to invoke their religion to prevent them from living in the way they wish so long as they are not harming others or restricting the freedom of others (which they are not.)

On Apr 1, 2006 12:03 am, lost_kitsune said:

With regards to Gay Marriage, I have come to the same conclusion you have lost_kitsune, if each of the states wish to be consistent and solve the problem.  I believe that the State should do away with the term “marriage.” When two consenting people of the legal age wish to ‘marry’ it should be defined as a legal contract between the two individuals, and this legal contract should be recognized by the state.  If these two people wish to solidify their union by getting “married” in a church of their religion, this is their choice and the religion’s choice, but it should not be necessary for their union to be validated by the state.  The two people do not even necessarily need to be intimately involved with one another; two friends could decide that they are not getting married and they could live together in order to take care of one another.  It should be a legally binding contract enforced by the laws of the state.  This could have a positive impact on adultery as well, for a couple can state in the contract the terms under which the agreement would be broken and the repercussions for this broken agreement.  For instance, if two people enter into a ‘marriage’ contract and state in the contract that if either party is proven to have committed adultery, the marriage can be dissolved by the other party and the spouse that committed the adulterous act will have to pay the other spouse X amount for X amount of time.  The contract would be treated just like any other legal binding contract between two entities.

On Apr 1, 2006 9:21 am, Jill V. -S.T.A.R.S. said:

While I am no huge fan of George Bush, or very few other politicians for that matter, he is not the reason there is no ‘Gay Marriage’ within the United States (it is not outlawed!), nor does he ‘rule’ the U.S. as a monarch or dictator would.  He is the President, but his powers are limited by the other two branches of government the Judicial Branch, who interprets the constitutionality of laws, and the Congress, who make the laws, have the power to change the Constitution, and have the power to override a presidential Veto with a 2/3 majority.  Also, as of right now, there is NO national law that bans the right for gay couples to get ‘married’.  It is up to each of the individual states to make the laws for the citizens residing within each state.  Many states like California and Vermont, have civil unions, domestic partnerships, etc, that allows gay couples for all intents and purposes to act ‘married’ under the law of that state, and Massachusetts as far as I know does allow gay marriage for the citizens of that state.  There is no national law prohibiting gay marriage, it is merely a state issue.

Outlawed was the wrong word to use. It only seems that way because people get all heated up about this subject that it almost seems like it's outlawed. Unwanted among certain groups would be a better term. As for George Bush I'm no fan of his either (if you couldn't tell ) and I'm sure he certainly doesn't help this matter in any way.

Couldn't agree more. I mean if you're homosexual good for you but you don't need to rub it in other's faces. Straight people don't go around with with bumper stickers, t-shirts, and things like that. But if they want to do that than they can do it it is a right of theirs anyway (freedom of speech) it just doesn't get them as much respect as they demand. I have gay friends who don't go around and scream it to the world, if you ask them sure they'll tell you but they don't press the subject. Lost kitsune is right they get more respect if they don't cram their sexuality at you ( I'm sure no one would like that gay or straight) 

I do agree with most of what is said.  I am in support of gay marrage for many reasons.  One is becuase as a heterosexual I recognize the descrimination and it appauls me.  I feel like we are back in the 1600's but instead of Blacks it's Gays.  In addition I believe that gay couples should get the same benefits as heterosexuals and in may companies they do. 

As for the sanctaty of marrage?  Well an appauling number of marriages end in divorce now days.  I consider myself lucky that my parents were married from the time I was born until now.  It seems unusual these days.  So if heterosexuals can't get it right, why not let homosexuals have a try?  Not that there wouldn't be divorces here, my argument is that marriage doesn't have the same meaning it once did so to say that marriage is sacred seems slightly hypocritical, at least to me.

As far as the Bible goes, I don't mean to offend people, but the Bible, and especially Leviticus, says a lot of things.  It also says that if a father rapes his daughter, both should be killed.  I can offer many other examples of things that this book says that many would disagree with.  My point is that few people would say that the victim of incestual rape should be killed, yet we so strongly hold to this verse from the same book of the Bible.  I think when we lose the ability to think for ourselves and simply try to live by a law, philosophy, or religion that may or may not have the answers to new problems, we lose our ability to reason and become blind and potentially prejudice.  We all know that a lot of suffering comes from ignorance.

I don't believe that people choose to be homosexual or heterosexual.  I think it is simply as a part of them as their eye color or other aspects beyond control.  Of course practicing sexuality takes consent, consciousness, and intent, but the feelings of attractiveness do not.

Okay that's my piece.  I think this is a great topic and once again, I'm so happy to be a part of a community inwhich a dividing topic like this one actually unites, educates, and provokes thoughts in participants.  I'm really happy that we can raise controversal issues like this and rest assured that we will not lose friends, be persecuted, or disrespected for having a differing opinion.  We can all simply participate in an educated and mature conversation.  Thank you all for continuing this tradition.

Unfortunately, alot of the people devoted to the same religion as I (Catholicism) that you hear ignorance and utter prejudice from, aren't truly embracing what this 'law', as you put it, means. I do not agree with homosexuality, nor do I condone homosexual marriage; but I'm not going to point my finger in your face and tell you you're wrong; that's not what our religion teaches. Despite popular belief, Catholicism teaches it's members to love our fellow human being, no matter what his/her affliction. And no, we're not the judge of things, all I'm out to do is help the state of a persons soul. People, as God made us, are free to do what we will. In my religion, we're taught to help others overcome the sins that can truly hurt us...that's really the basis behind all the nasty talk you hear from pumped up religious groups. And no, I don't agree with alot of their tactics, I think these things should be handled in a kinder, more caring manner.

So, anyway, that's just my two religious cents. I'm going to continue loving my fellow man, and helping him along his journey.