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Improving PaperDemon Debate. Let your opinions be known!
Posted: May 19, 2006 2:44 pm
# 1
BogusRed
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I got an email with a bunch of suggestions from a girl named Heather. I don't know what her alias is here at PD but she is a new member. Give her a big welcome.
Anyway, she sent me a bunch of suggestions in an email and we had a long discussion. I thought I'd bring it into the forums to see what peoples opinions are (I got her permission to do so). I've split the emails up by topic to make it easier to follow along.
I would like it if all the PD members out there would give their opinions on at least some of these topics on how to improve PD. Especially if you've used Epilogue.net and can tell me what it is that you like about it or don't like about it.
Those with strong opinions, please spill your guts.
Contests and Selling stuff
Heather:
BogusRed:
I know Arkillian really wants more spotlight for contests too. I'm thinking if we get more contests happening here, we could just open up a forum section specifically for announcing contests. Then we can spotlight that forum in the members area or the front page. There could be a section labeled "Latest Contests" right above the "Latest News" on the main members page to the right.
Heather:
BogusRed:
Heather:
A commission site wouldn't really get the word out about PaperDemon.com though. That sounds like something each artist would do on their own to sell their artwork. Perhaps I'm just not understanding exactly what the site is or what you are suggesting?
Tutorials
Heather:
BogusRed:
Yes we need more tutorials. I'm working on writing a begining photoshop tutorial but I'd love it if some of you experienced artists out there would take the time to write up a tutorial or two and submit it under Writing. We have a tutorial section specifically. I would like to branch it out even more and have it separated by subject.
Paper Demon's visual design
Heather:
BogusRed:
Heather:
BogusRed:
To elaborate on the PD design more, the PD side is in lighter values. It's a "high key" site design. It's not intended to have a lot of contrast and be high impact. It has a distinct "dreamy" feeling that matches my own personal style. It's also reflected in a lot of my artwork. Conversly, the Red curtain is "low key" meaning it uses values on the lower end of the value scale. I am quite happy with the designs on both sides. There are a few areas that could be better as far as layout but the overall atmosphere is just the way I want it.
Mod's Choice
Heather:
BogusRed:
Heather:
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. To me this sounds more like you are suggesting that the better artists get higher status. That is exactly what we do not want. I think rather the one's who should get rewarded are the ones that contribute more to the community in some way, not necessarily the ones who are better artists. Why do that here when other sites already provide that service.
It's too intimidating for the beginner. Most sites out there don't really give much attention to those who are hobbyists or just starting to draw. I think this website probably fulfills that need. But it's also a great place for professionals too.
We've been over the idea of Mod's choice many times here at PD. I think it still stands the same way it was before. If we are going to do something like this, i would want to do it in a way that gets attention for those that work hard but aren't necessarily the best. Featured artwork already does that nicely. Perhaps we could pick a genre gallery once a week and just showcase the featured artwork from that gallery?
Members and Accounts
Heather:
BogusRed:
Is anyone else turned off by the fact that we will be having paid accounts?
Money, Profits, etc.
Heather:
BogusRed:
PaperDemon.com is more like a personal project to me. I didn't start it with any intentions of making money from it. I just love to work on this website. Then I needed to find a way to pay for hosting costs and Google Adsense was a great way to do that.
The opinions of the members here are important to me. I want to take the best ideas of other sites out there but I still want PD to be different. I don't want it to be like every other site out there. Please let me know if you have any opinions on any of these matters.
Anyway, she sent me a bunch of suggestions in an email and we had a long discussion. I thought I'd bring it into the forums to see what peoples opinions are (I got her permission to do so). I've split the emails up by topic to make it easier to follow along.
I would like it if all the PD members out there would give their opinions on at least some of these topics on how to improve PD. Especially if you've used Epilogue.net and can tell me what it is that you like about it or don't like about it.
Those with strong opinions, please spill your guts.
Contests and Selling stuff
Heather:
Suggestion: More contests! I love contests ^_^.
BogusRed:
We haven't had any official artcontests yet but there is one held by a PD member going on in the Art Forum right now. I may be able to organize an official contest but I haven't had any time lately to think about it much. If you have any ideas for contests let me know.
I know Arkillian really wants more spotlight for contests too. I'm thinking if we get more contests happening here, we could just open up a forum section specifically for announcing contests. Then we can spotlight that forum in the members area or the front page. There could be a section labeled "Latest Contests" right above the "Latest News" on the main members page to the right.
Heather:
Art contests: If you cant come up with any ideas for art contests, run a bulletin for breainstorming then run a poll for the best ideas! Ever hear of Epilogue? The contest winners get their images featured in a art book..Im not sure if the book is a composition of certain art on the website or what. Anyways, that might be a way to raise funding. Thats how art contests do it. Just an idea.
BogusRed:
We've talked about a similar idea to the art book on PD a year ago. We were thinking of starting off with something small like a calendar from Cafepress. However, we are not large enough yet to have a contest for a calendar, let alone a book and sell it. We are a VERY small site. Currently we have under 900 registered members. That can be an idea we can save for later when we have more members and activity.
Heather:
Another idea for the future: Art auctions via Furbid.ws . You can sell originals, commissions, adult commissions, anime games, whatever. That can be easily turned into a means of profit to keep the site improving. You can kill 3 birds with one stone; (1) profit (2) motivation for word of mouth (3) Attract a more diverse crowd or artists.
A commission site wouldn't really get the word out about PaperDemon.com though. That sounds like something each artist would do on their own to sell their artwork. Perhaps I'm just not understanding exactly what the site is or what you are suggesting?
Tutorials
Heather:
Having a tutorial section would be a good idea. Have you ever heard of or seen Elfwood? They have a lot of good ideas there
BogusRed:
We do have a tutorial section but it is severely lacking. If you'd like to write a tutorial, you are completely welcome to do so:
http://www.paperdemon.com/story.php/cat/92.html
A lot of people don't know about the tutorial section. I'll see if I can give it more spotlight.
I have heard of Elfwood and I have gotten a few ideas from them.
http://www.paperdemon.com/story.php/cat/92.html
A lot of people don't know about the tutorial section. I'll see if I can give it more spotlight.
I have heard of Elfwood and I have gotten a few ideas from them.
Yes we need more tutorials. I'm working on writing a begining photoshop tutorial but I'd love it if some of you experienced artists out there would take the time to write up a tutorial or two and submit it under Writing. We have a tutorial section specifically. I would like to branch it out even more and have it separated by subject.
Paper Demon's visual design
Heather:
I love the "feel" that the red curtain has..I think Paperdemon could maybe have more of an atmosphere? Sowwy, I just love giving constructive criticism
BogusRed:
The red curtain is essentially the opposite of PD. They are like flip flopped values. Both have atmospheres and feelings but they are distinctly different. Since the Red Curtain is seen as "the dark side of PD" it is given darker colors. If you have any specific suggestions for making PD better, that would be helpful.
Heather:
And as for the feal on the main PD...I feel it really lacks contrast, their seems to be no focal point on the page. Just go back to what you learned in your design fundamentals. Give me something to focus on in the main area of the page. Give me some contrast.
BogusRed:
The front page of the site has been a continuing source of frustration for me. I'm trying to cram so much stuff on the page. I'm sure an alternative layout will hit me. I like having all the newest stuff on the front page because all of it is important. It's just hard to organize it all. As for design principles, I am not a Graphic Design major. The things I've learned about page design have mostly been through just experience and learning from observing other sites. I'm happy with the header and footer area on each page but I'm not completely satisfied with the front page. The gallery page will get a total revamp this summer. I will ditch the side bar and instead have thumbnails all the way across.
My goal with the site design is to do something that is organic but still clean. I am happy with the dreamy feel of PD. I don't want something too boxy like at Epilogue. Especially for a fantasy/anime site. What specifically is it that you like about Epilogue? I like the basic style at Elfwood and it has been an inspiration to me, but there is a lot of areas that look really unclean and underdeveloped such as the page with the artwork comments. It's just a table filled with text. Plus I hate how they show an artists gallery with an image map. But I commend them for doing something different with their design. It has a very "fantasy" feel to it. Their site doesn't look like every other site out there. Epilogue, however, that site doesn't seem too original to me as far as visual design. My goal would be to combine all the best technical features of sites out there but still have a site with an organic design, rather than a strait, boxy design. It's too database-ee, if you know what i mean. It looks like a dump of database data.
My goal with the site design is to do something that is organic but still clean. I am happy with the dreamy feel of PD. I don't want something too boxy like at Epilogue. Especially for a fantasy/anime site. What specifically is it that you like about Epilogue? I like the basic style at Elfwood and it has been an inspiration to me, but there is a lot of areas that look really unclean and underdeveloped such as the page with the artwork comments. It's just a table filled with text. Plus I hate how they show an artists gallery with an image map. But I commend them for doing something different with their design. It has a very "fantasy" feel to it. Their site doesn't look like every other site out there. Epilogue, however, that site doesn't seem too original to me as far as visual design. My goal would be to combine all the best technical features of sites out there but still have a site with an organic design, rather than a strait, boxy design. It's too database-ee, if you know what i mean. It looks like a dump of database data.
To elaborate on the PD design more, the PD side is in lighter values. It's a "high key" site design. It's not intended to have a lot of contrast and be high impact. It has a distinct "dreamy" feeling that matches my own personal style. It's also reflected in a lot of my artwork. Conversly, the Red curtain is "low key" meaning it uses values on the lower end of the value scale. I am quite happy with the designs on both sides. There are a few areas that could be better as far as layout but the overall atmosphere is just the way I want it.
Mod's Choice
Heather:
Also, on Elfwood they have the "mods choice." I really like that idea.
BogusRed:
The "Mod's Choice" is a definite no. A LOT of members on PD came to PD because of the close friendly, non-competitive atmosphere. A lot of us hate how on DeviantArt they showcase the artists with the skills but not necessarily the ones with the good ideas or good emotions. The artwork that gets chosen is the artwork that appeals to the tastes of the moderators. It breeds bad feelings. I'm really against it and so are a lot of members. I've even had people protest on PD about the "Weekly Top Favorites" on the main art gallery page. I'd only consider this idea if it was evened out and those with the good ideas and emotions where showcased just as often as those with the traditional drawing skills. Besides the featured artwork already serves the purpose of showcasing the best work. It's everyone's top 7 art pieces. The best work of all skill levels gets showcased.
Heather:
And what I liked about epilogue was that being accepted into the community was like earning a certain status; but that seems to be of no interest to you.
I understand that you want to keep the atmposhpere very nonthreatening but the reality is that there are a lot more possibilities with a more talented group. That's why I was throwing ideas out there to attract these kind of people to your site; also to inspire the people here to better themselves.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. To me this sounds more like you are suggesting that the better artists get higher status. That is exactly what we do not want. I think rather the one's who should get rewarded are the ones that contribute more to the community in some way, not necessarily the ones who are better artists. Why do that here when other sites already provide that service.
It's too intimidating for the beginner. Most sites out there don't really give much attention to those who are hobbyists or just starting to draw. I think this website probably fulfills that need. But it's also a great place for professionals too.
We've been over the idea of Mod's choice many times here at PD. I think it still stands the same way it was before. If we are going to do something like this, i would want to do it in a way that gets attention for those that work hard but aren't necessarily the best. Featured artwork already does that nicely. Perhaps we could pick a genre gallery once a week and just showcase the featured artwork from that gallery?
Members and Accounts
Heather:
I like how youre trying to maintain a certain standard, but this website limited when it comes to artists and talent. How long has PD been around?
When I started signing up for this site I was kinda turned off to it (because I noticed you had to pay for an upgrade). Idea: invest in your website by giving the artists more freedom and motive. Instead of paying for the upgrade, contest winners or the month's favorites can earn it. Also if youre not as talented, if you recruit so many people that actually upload their art to your website, they can earn the upgrade.
BogusRed:
PD has been around for perhaps 4 years. It wasn't anything then like it is now. All artwork was posted manually and it's been a learning process for me. Think of PD as a way for me to learn and experiment with web technologies. I didn't know about search engine optimization (and I'm still working on optimizing pages) so our growth has been really slow. This summer I will be revamping the art galleries to make them look nicer and to optimize them for search engines. This should increase our member base exponentially.
The paid upgrade is not yet even available. We offer some features on the free account that many other sites require payment for. For example, we have large size thumbnails available in all the galleries. At Deviantart, you have to pay to get that feature. The paid account pretty much offers only little personal customization benefits such as customized galleries, profile skins, increased inbox size, increased image folio size. Its a way of rewarding those who support the site. It's also a fair price. $29 a year is what I'm thinking of charging. And if someone purchases something from the PD store, they can use that towards the purchase of a premium account. Senior moderators get free premium accounts for their hard work.
The paid upgrade is not yet even available. We offer some features on the free account that many other sites require payment for. For example, we have large size thumbnails available in all the galleries. At Deviantart, you have to pay to get that feature. The paid account pretty much offers only little personal customization benefits such as customized galleries, profile skins, increased inbox size, increased image folio size. Its a way of rewarding those who support the site. It's also a fair price. $29 a year is what I'm thinking of charging. And if someone purchases something from the PD store, they can use that towards the purchase of a premium account. Senior moderators get free premium accounts for their hard work.
Is anyone else turned off by the fact that we will be having paid accounts?
Money, Profits, etc.
Heather:
I am rather business sauvy and I have tons of ideas. Im just not sure how far you want me to take this. Im not sure if this is just a side hobby or a long term project. If this is something you're serious about I think I could definatly help you out.
BogusRed:
You asked if this is a hobby or a business. I'm a full-time student in college and have been spending my free time building PD. It is a hobby but perhaps it will become more in the future. I have had no "training" in web development or programming or web design. It's all been stuff I've learned on my own. There are probably some fundamentals that I didn't learn yet. But I'll learn them. Especially this summer since I'll be working at Google. They'll teach me everything I need to know, I'm sure. I'm particularly excited about learning about icon design. The members area of PD is confusing to a lot of members. I'd like to make it more visual by adding icons and such. They are really good at user interface design and I'll be working closely with the UI design group this summer. I'll be able to take the knowledge that I learn there and apply it to PD.
That's what PD has been to me. A means of learning. But in the last year it has become so much more to me. The members have become like a second family to me and I'm trying my best to combine all the best ideas from art and writing community sites into one to provide both hobbyists and professionals a place to share their artwork. I'm just totally addicted to programming. It's like a drug for me haha.
It's very hard to turn a site like this into a "business." The advertising is just enough to cover hosting costs. Soon I will need to upgrade to a dedicated server. That costs at minimum $100 a month. Currently, I'm getting only $60 a month from advertising. You do the math. Fortunately, I have a paid internship for the summer and I can pay for the initial upgrade until our traffic increases and I can get enough revenue to cover the cost of advertising. Most art sites out there are not-for-profit because it's hard to make a site like this profitable. Poor y-gallery. They can't have any ads at all. They rely entirely on donations. They pay about $250 a month for their server. And in my opinion, y-gallery is one of the best designed art gallery sites I've ever seen. Both technically and visually. Especially technically. Have you seen their system for adding artwork to galleries? It's a beautiful use of DHTML. I'm still learning that technology.
Also consider the fact that the Red Curtain has absolutely no advertisements. That gets no money at all because most advertisers do not allow me to put their ads on an adult oriented website. Basically, if I wanted to sell ad space in the Red Curtain, I would have to put up disgusting porn ads, which I do not want to do. The whole reason the Red Curtain was created was as a way to separate adult content from the rest to satisfy Google's Adsense requirements (Adsense is the program through which I get the $60 a month for displaying ads).
That's what PD has been to me. A means of learning. But in the last year it has become so much more to me. The members have become like a second family to me and I'm trying my best to combine all the best ideas from art and writing community sites into one to provide both hobbyists and professionals a place to share their artwork. I'm just totally addicted to programming. It's like a drug for me haha.
It's very hard to turn a site like this into a "business." The advertising is just enough to cover hosting costs. Soon I will need to upgrade to a dedicated server. That costs at minimum $100 a month. Currently, I'm getting only $60 a month from advertising. You do the math. Fortunately, I have a paid internship for the summer and I can pay for the initial upgrade until our traffic increases and I can get enough revenue to cover the cost of advertising. Most art sites out there are not-for-profit because it's hard to make a site like this profitable. Poor y-gallery. They can't have any ads at all. They rely entirely on donations. They pay about $250 a month for their server. And in my opinion, y-gallery is one of the best designed art gallery sites I've ever seen. Both technically and visually. Especially technically. Have you seen their system for adding artwork to galleries? It's a beautiful use of DHTML. I'm still learning that technology.
Also consider the fact that the Red Curtain has absolutely no advertisements. That gets no money at all because most advertisers do not allow me to put their ads on an adult oriented website. Basically, if I wanted to sell ad space in the Red Curtain, I would have to put up disgusting porn ads, which I do not want to do. The whole reason the Red Curtain was created was as a way to separate adult content from the rest to satisfy Google's Adsense requirements (Adsense is the program through which I get the $60 a month for displaying ads).
PaperDemon.com is more like a personal project to me. I didn't start it with any intentions of making money from it. I just love to work on this website. Then I needed to find a way to pay for hosting costs and Google Adsense was a great way to do that.
The opinions of the members here are important to me. I want to take the best ideas of other sites out there but I still want PD to be different. I don't want it to be like every other site out there. Please let me know if you have any opinions on any of these matters.
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Posted: May 19, 2006 3:00 pm
# 2
Angel
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This is Heather! Anyways, the commission thing would be a really good networking idea. if I were to tell my friends about this site, they would be like "Oh I already have a deviant gallery or elfwood." If I told them "Hey, there's this really cool site where you can display your art, sell your art and also be propositioned to do commissions!" They would be like "Woah, ive never heard of that before, i'll take a look."
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Posted: May 19, 2006 3:10 pm
# 3
BogusRed
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Oh ok. So you are saying offer some sort of commission thing HERE on PD?
We did have a discussion about that. I don't feel comfortable handling the commissions. Then I'd have to deal with settling disputes and all sorts of stuff. However, we've talked about an alternative such as labeling the members who are offering commissions. For example, putting a little symbol next to their name if they offer comissions.
here's the topic where we discussed the idea.
I never really took any action on it. The idea isn't solid enough yet and needs more discussion.
We did have a discussion about that. I don't feel comfortable handling the commissions. Then I'd have to deal with settling disputes and all sorts of stuff. However, we've talked about an alternative such as labeling the members who are offering commissions. For example, putting a little symbol next to their name if they offer comissions.
here's the topic where we discussed the idea.
I never really took any action on it. The idea isn't solid enough yet and needs more discussion.
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Posted: May 21, 2006 6:00 pm
# 4
karana kaou
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Heather:
I like how you're trying to maintain a certain standard, but this site is limited when it comes to artists and talent.
Hmm, I know Susie already explained this, but PaperDemon wants to continue to be open and accepting of every level of artist. I don't think I've come across a place like PD that can offer so much wonderful support to the budding new artist. Correct me if I'm wrong Susie, but I think the original intention of PD was to create a community of people who simply loved the art itself...In that sense, she has neither limited, nor restricted access to the beginner or professional.
I very deeply respect the kind of atmosphere Susie has created here, and hope that through it's growth...it does not change.
Last edited by karana kaou on May 22, 2006 7:51 am. Total edits: 2.
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Posted: May 21, 2006 9:00 pm
# 5
I'm all for the Tutorials, Mod's Choice, and Contests!! ![[emoticon]](http://www.paperdemon.com/images/forum/mysmilies/15pxyellow_smile.gif)
As for the rest of it, I'll leave that to other people to decide. But, those three I really like. ^_^
As for the rest of it, I'll leave that to other people to decide. But, those three I really like. ^_^---
It's only those who have no idea what they're doing that are quick to demand they know what they're doing better then you. - themusicdied
Posted: May 22, 2006 2:07 am
# 6
arkillian
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I'm not sure how the Paperdemon section should require more contrast in it- I really love the design more than Redcurtain actually. Redcurtain is a darker look, which is good, but paper demon actually has a 'heaven' feel to it- very bright, positive, and beutiful. I don't beleive it needs anything more than it has.
As for commssions and comps- I agree, but it really depends on how people take my competition as I see it. I reckon iff its popular and there is interest for more comps then maybe there should be a tab at the top for current competitions, or even put a tab for people that are open for commissions- like if in the accounts thing there is somethingto tick saying that you do commish, then your name goes onto the tab for commssions with a mailto address, and a link to the gallery. Maybe more.
One thing I'm gonna totally agree with BR on this is just cause Elfwood or deviantart have mod's choice or featured artists, it doesn't mean this site should- it's not big enough, and it requires effort that BR doesn't have. Besides, we're all happy cruisy around here. That's the beuty about Paper Demon. Deviant art has too many people- you don't get noticed unless you have ubber awesome art or do the right stuff (fanart usually), Here- everyone sees you, knows you, and shares the love. On DA, you get two word comments. Here, people say alot more, and notice progres of style and help out if you want it.
This site has only been going for 4 years, but in the time I've been here its gone from having no more than 2 people logged on at once to sometimes more than 10 at a time. And it hasn't TRUELY been advertised yet. There's a reason- easy going, not rules, and everyone is friendly. PD is very different to DA. In a good way
As for commssions and comps- I agree, but it really depends on how people take my competition as I see it. I reckon iff its popular and there is interest for more comps then maybe there should be a tab at the top for current competitions, or even put a tab for people that are open for commissions- like if in the accounts thing there is somethingto tick saying that you do commish, then your name goes onto the tab for commssions with a mailto address, and a link to the gallery. Maybe more.
One thing I'm gonna totally agree with BR on this is just cause Elfwood or deviantart have mod's choice or featured artists, it doesn't mean this site should- it's not big enough, and it requires effort that BR doesn't have. Besides, we're all happy cruisy around here. That's the beuty about Paper Demon. Deviant art has too many people- you don't get noticed unless you have ubber awesome art or do the right stuff (fanart usually), Here- everyone sees you, knows you, and shares the love. On DA, you get two word comments. Here, people say alot more, and notice progres of style and help out if you want it.
This site has only been going for 4 years, but in the time I've been here its gone from having no more than 2 people logged on at once to sometimes more than 10 at a time. And it hasn't TRUELY been advertised yet. There's a reason- easy going, not rules, and everyone is friendly. PD is very different to DA. In a good way
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Posted: May 22, 2006 12:30 pm
# 7
BogusRed
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Ok I've created a Contests forum. details on how to add a competition to that section are in the sticky post in that forum.
Contests are displayed in the Main Members Area in the right column. It will always show the 5 most recent contests. I've also removed the 5 latest forum topics on the front page and replaced it with the 5 latest contests. i've moved it up further in the column also so that it gets more exposure.
We can also set up a special page on the site just for art commissions that will have the title of the competition with a link to the forum post describing it, then it will show all the entries in the competition together, with the winner(s) highlighted.
I've added a comission checkbox option. If you accept commissions, please edit your profile and check this box as soon as you can. I'll see if I can have some special thing show up on profiles for those accepting commissions. Checking this now will help me test the feature.
Before we talked about having a special icon or symbol next to the names of those accepting commishes. But I think people might check the box even though they don't accept commissions just so that they get the icon next to their name, making their name stand out. So there is potential for abuse there.
Contests are displayed in the Main Members Area in the right column. It will always show the 5 most recent contests. I've also removed the 5 latest forum topics on the front page and replaced it with the 5 latest contests. i've moved it up further in the column also so that it gets more exposure.
We can also set up a special page on the site just for art commissions that will have the title of the competition with a link to the forum post describing it, then it will show all the entries in the competition together, with the winner(s) highlighted.
I've added a comission checkbox option. If you accept commissions, please edit your profile and check this box as soon as you can. I'll see if I can have some special thing show up on profiles for those accepting commissions. Checking this now will help me test the feature.
Before we talked about having a special icon or symbol next to the names of those accepting commishes. But I think people might check the box even though they don't accept commissions just so that they get the icon next to their name, making their name stand out. So there is potential for abuse there.
Last edited by BogusRed on May 22, 2006 12:54 pm. Total edits: 2.
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Posted: May 22, 2006 2:20 pm
# 8
arkillian
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I just ticked it but can't find any changes to my profile page. Do I need to do more or is it borken? ^^;
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Posted: May 22, 2006 3:01 pm
# 9
BogusRed
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I haven't done anything with it yet. You wont see a change on your profile until I finish the feature. I haven't decided exactly what will appear on the profile page yet.
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Help me squarsh bugs .
Email me if you find a problem with the site.
Posted: May 22, 2006 3:15 pm
# 10
arkillian
Beta Tester
Jr. Moderator
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On May 22, 2006 3:01 pm, BogusRed said:
aHHH- OK ^^; Figured that there was a reason ^^;
I haven't done anything with it yet. You wont see a change on your profile until I finish the feature. I haven't decided exactly what will appear on the profile page yet.
aHHH- OK ^^; Figured that there was a reason ^^;
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Show your Paper Demon love! Hug a submission and tell it why you love it so much ^^
Posted: May 23, 2006 1:08 am
# 11
Angel
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Karana, I didn't mean that at all.. Im just saying that the community is very small and therefor not very diversified
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"True Wisdom Lies In Knowing That You Know Nothing."
