So far, Runic Tunic, we are discussing what we should and should not allow.  Along the lines of child nudity - if it's innocent, not in a sexy pose, or concentrating on the genitalia, I think it's fine.  However, if the child is being exploited, it is not fine.

I think the point Hot Spur is trying to make is that once we open the door to shota (even as limited as it is here) we could be opening the door to other things that we don't want on the site. And to be truthful I did not even consider them until Hot Spur brought them up. Which means there's nothing in the rules against these types of art so people may think its ok to post it. I will have to draw up some new rules because I truthfully do not want scat or bestiality on PD. I do not believe Hot Spur was attacking the artists here as Minimaid pointed out. He's just warning us.

Ok, I'm sorry if anyone thanks I was yelling, but I wasn't compeletly off topic, either.

..I just wanna know why am the only one other oppisite side, when i know good and well I'm not the only person that draws it.Where the hell is everyone? Zyepnen ,and I got all these people yet, only 8 people have have something to say about it (Minus Bogus Red), and I'm the only 1 person with the objectiving view?

If I'm gonna be team up agianst ,then forget it. I still do feel attack ,because you can't explain for someone esle.

If they're not attack then THEY need to say so themselves. Not other's speaking up for them when they go clearly speak out for themsevles.
I'm done. *walks out*

On Aug 4, 2007 7:37 pm, Nekoyoujo said:

Zyepnen ,and I got all these people yet, only 8 people have have something to say about it (Minus Bogus Red), and I'm the only 1 person with the objectiving view?

Just so you know, Neko, I am not completely against shota, and I wasn't trying to yell at you, either.  I don't agree with PRE-pubescent shota / "lollicon" art, as I believe it's not a biologically natural situation for a person to be in. 

I hope this doesn't deter you from further working on this site... Some people do not even read forums, even if they are active on a site, and even if they might have the same opinions as you.  Please don't get discouraged about the people on this site that may have come with you or Zyephen (as I did) simply because they are not posting here.

I've written stories involving post-pubescent shota, and a few of my favorite pairings involve young teens.  My argument against shota only lies in pre-puberty.  I hope that clears up my standing. =)

On Aug 4, 2007 10:09 pm, Draith said:

[quote]

Just so you know, Neko, I am not completely against shota, and I wasn't trying to yell at you, either.  I don't agree with PRE-pubescent shota / "lollicon" art, as I believe it's not a biologically natural situation for a person to be in. 

I hope this doesn't deter you from further working on this site... Some people do not even read forums, even if they are active on a site, and even if they might have the same opinions as you.  Please don't get discouraged about the people on this site that may have come with you or Zyephen (as I did) simply because they are not posting here.

I've written stories involving post-pubescent shota, and a few of my favorite pairings involve young teens.  My argument against shota only lies in pre-puberty.  I hope that clears up my standing. =)

[/quote]

You took the words right out of my mouth :) Pre-pub children should be shown as happy and enjoying life. In art AND in art. On those grounds, I don't like Pre-pub shota/loli. Post-pub is fine to me. At that point of time, they have hormones roaring about and I have no issue with someone that wants to draw that.

If people want to draw pre-pub shota/loli, then I want to be able to filter it off. That and Mpreg are two filters I'd want. I can stand alot of other stuff. I dissagree with the above :(

On Aug 4, 2007 11:25 pm, arkillian said:
[quote]

If people want to draw pre-pub shota/loli, then I want to be able to filter it off. That and Mpreg are two filters I'd want. I can stand alot of other stuff. I dissagree with the above :(

[/quote]

I can create a gallery for Mpreg and a filter for it. Since there is no pre-pub shota here there's no need for a filter.

Nekoyoujo, I'm a little confused and I'm not quite sure what your arguments are. Would you mind clarifying your points?

On Aug 4, 2007 4:44 am, Hotspur said:
[quote]

I'm not going to respond to each person who responded to me--especially the incoherent one--

[/quote]

Just for the record, I believe Hotspur was, indeed, calling Nekoyoujo incoherent. Whether it was meant maliciously or not can only be answered by Hotspur himself. Was it a bit tactless? I'm inclined to think so.

As for the arguement presented about fantasy and reality, and sexualization of children depicted in art, I do have a bit to say on the matter.

The fact is that pornography desensitizes. That is to say, if a pedophile viewed excessive amounts of shouta or loli (or similar types of art) over an extended period of time, eventually simply viewing the art would no longer be enough. Continued desensitization could result in the viewing of actual child pornography, and eventually... well, you know. It has to be said that this really only applies to actual pedophiles (those who have already had sexual feelings about children, and have already had the urge to act on said feelings). The problem here is that you can't tell who pedophiles are over the internet; it's difficult enough "IRL".

I think it's best to err on the side of caution here, and keep it 15 or 16 and above. And, as has been said before (I believe), I think that in fanart, if a character is aged appropriately, it's fine to depict them sexually. DA is a bit ridiculous in that respect. :/

And since it was brought up... violence in video games and in movies is only responsible for violence in people if said people aren't mentally stable enough to realize the difference between fantasy and reality. For example, I play Silent Hill. I don't go around to the local elementary school and kill children because I think they've turned into demons. Because I'm mentally stable enough to realize that the game is FICTION, and nothing more. The problem comes when one cannot differentiate between the two. To add to this (in case I wasn't clear earlier), the same can be said for shouta/loli. As long as there is no mental defect (pedophilia) already present, it generally won't cause much damage.

Also, parents should be more responsible for what games and movies they buy their children. There's a rating system for a reason, people! Sorry. That just always pisses me off. *grumble*

My ultimate point is this: I see what you're saying, Nekoyoujo. I'm one of those "do whatever you want, as long as you're not hurting anybody" people too. But I also think the issue here is more than just freedom of artistic expression. If that were all it amounted to, I don't think there'd be this much of an argument about it. The core of it, for me, comes down to this: Shouta/Loli isn't necessarily wrong, as long as it is only on paper. However, if pedophiles can view said art and become desensitzed to it, and the behavior escalates until they prey upon an actual living, breathing child, is it worth it? I think you'd agree that it's not.

I don't mean to sound dramatic, or anything. I just think it's best to err on the side of caution in such situations.

And so ends the LONGEST POST EVAR IN THE HISTORY OF POSTING. o___0;;

P.S. The idea of filters is VERY good. I haven't posted anything here yet, out of pure artists block. But however this goes, I'm glad to be a member of a site where people can discuss things rationally with each other. :)

P.P.S. I don't have a very good brain-to-mouth filter, and routinely describe myself as "socially retarded", so if I've said anything that you percieve as being offensive, please tell me, and I'll try to clarify as best I can.

Okay, it's over now. Srsly. :D

This pedo argument is getting really stupid and out of hand here- I don't even know why it was brought up in the first place. As I see it, it's like this- If a 13 year old forges their age to go to RC, then Bogusred has put everything she can up to stop it. If a Pedo comes on PD to look at kiddy porn then there's not alot we can do with filters cause they'll turn them off.

But you know what? I dont' think PD is *really* going to make that much of a kiddy porn contribution even if Susie allowed it. Y!g is dedicated to yaoi, and there's not really that much shota there at all.

What I say is that if it's in taste, allowe it. If it's too exploiting and for the sake of sex only, can it. Besides, if someone appreciates shota, it doesn't mean they're a pedo, or going to become one. A pedo would go after kids with or without visiting a website with art. I seriously don't think they'd care about art. IT would be about the act.

So all of you- lets focus on the community. FORGET PEDOS. It's not Susie's responsibility for looking out for weirdos. This community is for art. If we want shota, let us post it (if Susie allowes it). Pedos will do as they please whether they surf here or not, and only cutting it out will stop that. At what cost though? We can't post art cause a pedo may see it.

Seriously. Back to the community. Not psychos.

On Aug 5, 2007 4:17 pm, arkillian said:
[quote]Y!g is dedicated to yaoi, and there's not really that much shota there at all.

What I say is that if it's in taste, allowe it. If it's too exploiting and for the sake of sex only, can it. Besides, if someone appreciates shota, it doesn't mean they're a pedo, or going to become one. A pedo would go after kids with or without visiting a website with art. I seriously don't think they'd care about art. IT would be about the act.[/quote]

I agree with you, mostly... But actually there's a surprising amount of shota on y!gallery, I'm on there a lot. 

Also, as I've stated before, pedophiles are NOT merely limited to physically touching children!  I agree that this shouldn't be the main concern as there's nothing a website, especially a smaller community, can do to really stop or help pedophiles, but the point is that some people with pedophilia DO merely like to look at kiddie porn or simple shota art.  The psychological disorder has many incarnations and many affects on different people in different ways.  I just wanted to point out so that everyone understands just because pedophiles often attack kids doesn't mean that they don't look at images... and also, some will never touch a child and still get their rocks off to shota artwork.  Now, is that harming a child?  No... But if you're only concerned about pedos, then there you go. 

But I agree, peds aren't the point.  =)  It's about the community, and filters are usually the answer to most debates.  I think the rule of no pre-pub is a good one, personally (my own opinion), and all else is covered under personal tastes and opinions.  =) 

Draith hon- Can you please not call people that draw or look at shota pedos.

Please.

Perverts- if you want to call them something, it'd be slightly accurate. My reasons for this:-

I admit, that I draw yaoi. I dont' draw alot, but I'd draw more if it got attention here and at PD. I like to surf yaoi, and read it. I even own a few comics. I'm not gay though- I'm as straight as a door nail. I like the male figure though.

And even better example- I know ALOT of girls that draw yuri (lesbian porn). They're rather look at that than straight or yaoi. Are they lesbian? No. Some of them think penis' look ugly and would rather see two females.

It's the same with shota. I don't like it, but I'm not about to call them all pedophiles just cause they'd rather see someone younger than someone older. I feel that if we keep global taste at this art site with ALL art, the only shota we'll see is the ok type of 'Awe- ain't he sweet, he's playing with his little weener' or something. It's the cute aspect- not the sexual one. it's like chibi sex. It's not always serious!

In saying that, we have the right to say no to it. I don't want to see it. I'm certainly not stopping people posting it if it's tastefull and others want to see it. But please-

Do not label!!

For those of us that aren't gay, lesbian or pedophiles but draw it cause it's aesthetic to us. We aren't even perverts. We just like the form- that's all :)